Discussion:
[Hackrf-dev] Fwd: HackRF for preliminary FCC home test?
Sergey Ivanov
2017-08-04 18:26:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi All!

I have a product which uses nRF24L01+ 2.4 GHz modules for communication.
Now we have plans to go to North America market, and I am not sure if my
Chinese nRF modules can pass FCC test. If they can't, then I need to
re-design my PCB (now I use 2 layers logic board and nRF on a socket).

Can I use HackRF to imitate FCC test on my workbench?
Sergey Ivanov
2017-08-04 20:00:05 UTC
Permalink
Is there someone who did this or similar task before?
Any specific suggestions?
You can do what ever you like as long as you understand the rules for a
licence and GNU Radio
Andrew
Hi All!
I have a product which uses nRF24L01+ 2.4 GHz modules for communication.
Now we have plans to go to North America market, and I am not sure if my
Chinese nRF modules can pass FCC test. If they can't, then I need to
re-design my PCB (now I use 2 layers logic board and nRF on a socket).
Can I use HackRF to imitate FCC test on my workbench?
_______________________________________________
HackRF-dev mailing list
https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/hackrf-dev
--
Best Regards,

Sergey Ivanov
+7 910 424 9895
Chuck McManis
2017-08-04 20:35:48 UTC
Permalink
I am not sure exactly what you are asking.

If you want to get FCC certification for your device, there is a process it
is documented at the FCC web site here:
https://www.fcc.gov/engineering-technology/laboratory-division/general/equipment-authorization

That pretty much outlines the steps. If you are using a manufacturer
supplied radio stack you may be able to leverage their certification but if
you wrote your own stack you will need to do the authorization
independently. There are a number of consultancies in the US who will
handle the process for you (for a fee of course). A long time ago (2006) I
was on a project that needed such certification and the vendor hired
charged $50,000 and it took four months to complete. They did all the
required paperwork and followed up on all of the questions the FCC had,
they also flew out an engineer to an FCC certified test facility to get the
verification tests done. (I live in the San Francisco bay area and the FCC
testing facilities around here are typically reserved months, if not years,
in advance it seems).

--Chuck
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Is there someone who did this or similar task before?
Any specific suggestions?
You can do what ever you like as long as you understand the rules for a
licence and GNU Radio
Andrew
Hi All!
I have a product which uses nRF24L01+ 2.4 GHz modules for communication.
Now we have plans to go to North America market, and I am not sure if my
Chinese nRF modules can pass FCC test. If they can't, then I need to
re-design my PCB (now I use 2 layers logic board and nRF on a socket).
Can I use HackRF to imitate FCC test on my workbench?
_______________________________________________
HackRF-dev mailing list
https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/hackrf-dev
--
Best Regards,
Sergey Ivanov
+7 910 424 9895 <+7%20910%20424-98-95>
_______________________________________________
HackRF-dev mailing list
https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/hackrf-dev
Sergey Ivanov
2017-08-04 20:55:24 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Chuck!

I'll check this out. What do you mean by a radio stack?
For now my plan is to use pre-certified modules so that my board will be
certified as an unintentional radiator, which is thousands of $.
But I still need to prove that the board doesn't emit Electro Magnetic
Field above allowed.
Post by Chuck McManis
I am not sure exactly what you are asking.
If you want to get FCC certification for your device, there is a process
https://www.fcc.gov/engineering-technology/laboratory-division/general/equipment-authorization
That pretty much outlines the steps. If you are using a manufacturer
supplied radio stack you may be able to leverage their certification but if
you wrote your own stack you will need to do the authorization
independently. There are a number of consultancies in the US who will
handle the process for you (for a fee of course). A long time ago (2006) I
was on a project that needed such certification and the vendor hired
charged $50,000 and it took four months to complete. They did all the
required paperwork and followed up on all of the questions the FCC had,
they also flew out an engineer to an FCC certified test facility to get the
verification tests done. (I live in the San Francisco bay area and the FCC
testing facilities around here are typically reserved months, if not years,
in advance it seems).
--Chuck
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Is there someone who did this or similar task before?
Any specific suggestions?
You can do what ever you like as long as you understand the rules for a
licence and GNU Radio
Andrew
Hi All!
I have a product which uses nRF24L01+ 2.4 GHz modules for
communication. Now we have plans to go to North America market, and I
am not sure if my Chinese nRF modules can pass FCC test. If they can't,
then I need to re-design my PCB (now I use 2 layers logic board and nRF on
a socket).
Can I use HackRF to imitate FCC test on my workbench?
_______________________________________________
HackRF-dev mailing list
https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/hackrf-dev
--
Best Regards,
Sergey Ivanov
+7 910 424 9895 <+7%20910%20424-98-95>
_______________________________________________
HackRF-dev mailing list
https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/hackrf-dev
--
Best Regards,

Sergey Ivanov
+7 910 424 9895
Andrew Rich
2017-08-04 20:58:26 UTC
Permalink
Hack RF is test gear

Exempt

Sent from my iPhone
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Thank you Chuck!
I'll check this out. What do you mean by a radio stack?
For now my plan is to use pre-certified modules so that my board will be certified as an unintentional radiator, which is thousands of $.
But I still need to prove that the board doesn't emit Electro Magnetic Field above allowed.
Post by Chuck McManis
I am not sure exactly what you are asking.
https://www.fcc.gov/engineering-technology/laboratory-division/general/equipment-authorization
That pretty much outlines the steps. If you are using a manufacturer supplied radio stack you may be able to leverage their certification but if you wrote your own stack you will need to do the authorization independently. There are a number of consultancies in the US who will handle the process for you (for a fee of course). A long time ago (2006) I was on a project that needed such certification and the vendor hired charged $50,000 and it took four months to complete. They did all the required paperwork and followed up on all of the questions the FCC had, they also flew out an engineer to an FCC certified test facility to get the verification tests done. (I live in the San Francisco bay area and the FCC testing facilities around here are typically reserved months, if not years, in advance it seems).
--Chuck
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Is there someone who did this or similar task before?
Any specific suggestions?
You can do what ever you like as long as you understand the rules for a licence and GNU Radio
Andrew
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Hi All!
I have a product which uses nRF24L01+ 2.4 GHz modules for communication. Now we have plans to go to North America market, and I am not sure if my Chinese nRF modules can pass FCC test. If they can't, then I need to re-design my PCB (now I use 2 layers logic board and nRF on a socket).
Can I use HackRF to imitate FCC test on my workbench?
_______________________________________________
HackRF-dev mailing list
https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/hackrf-dev
--
Best Regards,
Sergey Ivanov
+7 910 424 9895
_______________________________________________
HackRF-dev mailing list
https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/hackrf-dev
--
Best Regards,
Sergey Ivanov
+7 910 424 9895
_______________________________________________
HackRF-dev mailing list
https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/hackrf-dev
Chuck McManis
2017-08-04 23:47:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sergey Ivanov
What do you mean by a radio stack?
Many modules that implement various radio protocols run software on a
captive microprocessor. That software implements the protocol and drives
the radio electronics. For example TI offers firmware that runs on the
processor inside their CC3000 series chips that implement the Bluetooth
protocols. If a project uses their software in this chip, it can take
advantage of TI's efforts to get that software certified (see this:
http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/CC3000_Product_Certification) which
saves time and effort.

For Part 15 certification (unintended emissions) you need to get a
certificate from a testing laboratory that is certified by the FCC. They
will put your product in a chamber that absorbs all RF with a wide band
detector and spectrum analyzer. The will detect all of the unintended
emissions and chart them in frequency and dBm. You take their report and a
certification that you aren't going to change the design, and submit that
to the FCC and they will give you a certification ID.

Note that the FCC won't accept your testing, they only accept a certified
lab's test results.

--Chuck
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Thank you Chuck!
I'll check this out. What do you mean by a radio stack?
For now my plan is to use pre-certified modules so that my board will be
certified as an unintentional radiator, which is thousands of $.
But I still need to prove that the board doesn't emit Electro Magnetic
Field above allowed.
Post by Chuck McManis
I am not sure exactly what you are asking.
If you want to get FCC certification for your device, there is a process
https://www.fcc.gov/engineering-technology/laboratory-division/general/
equipment-authorization
That pretty much outlines the steps. If you are using a manufacturer
supplied radio stack you may be able to leverage their certification but if
you wrote your own stack you will need to do the authorization
independently. There are a number of consultancies in the US who will
handle the process for you (for a fee of course). A long time ago (2006) I
was on a project that needed such certification and the vendor hired
charged $50,000 and it took four months to complete. They did all the
required paperwork and followed up on all of the questions the FCC had,
they also flew out an engineer to an FCC certified test facility to get the
verification tests done. (I live in the San Francisco bay area and the FCC
testing facilities around here are typically reserved months, if not years,
in advance it seems).
--Chuck
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Is there someone who did this or similar task before?
Any specific suggestions?
You can do what ever you like as long as you understand the rules for a
licence and GNU Radio
Andrew
Hi All!
I have a product which uses nRF24L01+ 2.4 GHz modules for
communication. Now we have plans to go to North America market, and I
am not sure if my Chinese nRF modules can pass FCC test. If they can't,
then I need to re-design my PCB (now I use 2 layers logic board and nRF on
a socket).
Can I use HackRF to imitate FCC test on my workbench?
_______________________________________________
HackRF-dev mailing list
https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/hackrf-dev
--
Best Regards,
Sergey Ivanov
+7 910 424 9895 <+7%20910%20424-98-95>
_______________________________________________
HackRF-dev mailing list
https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/hackrf-dev
--
Best Regards,
Sergey Ivanov
+7 910 424 9895 <+7%20910%20424-98-95>
Andrew Rich
2017-08-05 00:13:00 UTC
Permalink
So basically your trying to save some dollars and get out of testing

Sent from my iPhone
Post by Sergey Ivanov
What do you mean by a radio stack?
Many modules that implement various radio protocols run software on a captive microprocessor. That software implements the protocol and drives the radio electronics. For example TI offers firmware that runs on the processor inside their CC3000 series chips that implement the Bluetooth protocols. If a project uses their software in this chip, it can take advantage of TI's efforts to get that software certified (see this: http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/CC3000_Product_Certification) which saves time and effort.
For Part 15 certification (unintended emissions) you need to get a certificate from a testing laboratory that is certified by the FCC. They will put your product in a chamber that absorbs all RF with a wide band detector and spectrum analyzer. The will detect all of the unintended emissions and chart them in frequency and dBm. You take their report and a certification that you aren't going to change the design, and submit that to the FCC and they will give you a certification ID.
Note that the FCC won't accept your testing, they only accept a certified lab's test results.
--Chuck
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Thank you Chuck!
I'll check this out. What do you mean by a radio stack?
For now my plan is to use pre-certified modules so that my board will be certified as an unintentional radiator, which is thousands of $.
But I still need to prove that the board doesn't emit Electro Magnetic Field above allowed.
Post by Chuck McManis
I am not sure exactly what you are asking.
https://www.fcc.gov/engineering-technology/laboratory-division/general/equipment-authorization
That pretty much outlines the steps. If you are using a manufacturer supplied radio stack you may be able to leverage their certification but if you wrote your own stack you will need to do the authorization independently. There are a number of consultancies in the US who will handle the process for you (for a fee of course). A long time ago (2006) I was on a project that needed such certification and the vendor hired charged $50,000 and it took four months to complete. They did all the required paperwork and followed up on all of the questions the FCC had, they also flew out an engineer to an FCC certified test facility to get the verification tests done. (I live in the San Francisco bay area and the FCC testing facilities around here are typically reserved months, if not years, in advance it seems).
--Chuck
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Is there someone who did this or similar task before?
Any specific suggestions?
You can do what ever you like as long as you understand the rules for a licence and GNU Radio
Andrew
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Hi All!
I have a product which uses nRF24L01+ 2.4 GHz modules for communication. Now we have plans to go to North America market, and I am not sure if my Chinese nRF modules can pass FCC test. If they can't, then I need to re-design my PCB (now I use 2 layers logic board and nRF on a socket).
Can I use HackRF to imitate FCC test on my workbench?
_______________________________________________
HackRF-dev mailing list
https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/hackrf-dev
--
Best Regards,
Sergey Ivanov
+7 910 424 9895
_______________________________________________
HackRF-dev mailing list
https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/hackrf-dev
--
Best Regards,
Sergey Ivanov
+7 910 424 9895
_______________________________________________
HackRF-dev mailing list
https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/hackrf-dev
Chris Kuethe
2017-08-05 15:44:24 UTC
Permalink
It doesn't sound like he's trying to get out of testing; rather, he's
trying to save time and money by not submitting a known non-compliant
device to testing. Additionally, it might be neat if he could
basically do the RF equivalent of continuous integration. Eventually
he'll probably have to spend real money on real calibrated test
equipment for his in-house R&D lab, but that might not be the best way
to spend money at this time.

As for knowing what FCC specs to match, you can look at the test
reports for similar products.
Post by Andrew Rich
So basically your trying to save some dollars and get out of testing
Sent from my iPhone
Post by Sergey Ivanov
What do you mean by a radio stack?
Many modules that implement various radio protocols run software on a
captive microprocessor. That software implements the protocol and drives the
radio electronics. For example TI offers firmware that runs on the processor
inside their CC3000 series chips that implement the Bluetooth protocols. If
a project uses their software in this chip, it can take advantage of TI's
http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/CC3000_Product_Certification) which
saves time and effort.
For Part 15 certification (unintended emissions) you need to get a
certificate from a testing laboratory that is certified by the FCC. They
will put your product in a chamber that absorbs all RF with a wide band
detector and spectrum analyzer. The will detect all of the unintended
emissions and chart them in frequency and dBm. You take their report and a
certification that you aren't going to change the design, and submit that to
the FCC and they will give you a certification ID.
Note that the FCC won't accept your testing, they only accept a certified
lab's test results.
--Chuck
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Thank you Chuck!
I'll check this out. What do you mean by a radio stack?
For now my plan is to use pre-certified modules so that my board will be
certified as an unintentional radiator, which is thousands of $.
But I still need to prove that the board doesn't emit Electro Magnetic
Field above allowed.
Post by Chuck McManis
I am not sure exactly what you are asking.
If you want to get FCC certification for your device, there is a process
https://www.fcc.gov/engineering-technology/laboratory-division/general/equipment-authorization
That pretty much outlines the steps. If you are using a manufacturer
supplied radio stack you may be able to leverage their certification but if
you wrote your own stack you will need to do the authorization
independently. There are a number of consultancies in the US who will handle
the process for you (for a fee of course). A long time ago (2006) I was on a
project that needed such certification and the vendor hired charged $50,000
and it took four months to complete. They did all the required paperwork and
followed up on all of the questions the FCC had, they also flew out an
engineer to an FCC certified test facility to get the verification tests
done. (I live in the San Francisco bay area and the FCC testing facilities
around here are typically reserved months, if not years, in advance it
seems).
--Chuck
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Is there someone who did this or similar task before?
Any specific suggestions?
You can do what ever you like as long as you understand the rules for a
licence and GNU Radio
Andrew
Hi All!
I have a product which uses nRF24L01+ 2.4 GHz modules for
communication. Now we have plans to go to North America market, and I am not
sure if my Chinese nRF modules can pass FCC test. If they can't, then I need
to re-design my PCB (now I use 2 layers logic board and nRF on a socket).
Can I use HackRF to imitate FCC test on my workbench?
_______________________________________________
HackRF-dev mailing list
https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/hackrf-dev
--
Best Regards,
Sergey Ivanov
+7 910 424 9895
_______________________________________________
HackRF-dev mailing list
https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/hackrf-dev
--
Best Regards,
Sergey Ivanov
+7 910 424 9895
_______________________________________________
HackRF-dev mailing list
https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/hackrf-dev
_______________________________________________
HackRF-dev mailing list
https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/hackrf-dev
--
GDB has a 'break' feature; why doesn't it have 'fix' too?
Sergey Ivanov
2017-08-06 20:27:36 UTC
Permalink
Exactly.
Except that I am not going to spend money on a professional calibrated
equipment. The goal is to make quick and dirty "kind of" FCC test to allow
rapid hardware and firmware iterations in the house.
When I will be confident, I will go to a certified lab as everyone do for
FCC.

Thanks for the idea to check similar FCC test reports!
Post by Chris Kuethe
It doesn't sound like he's trying to get out of testing; rather, he's
trying to save time and money by not submitting a known non-compliant
device to testing. Additionally, it might be neat if he could
basically do the RF equivalent of continuous integration. Eventually
he'll probably have to spend real money on real calibrated test
equipment for his in-house R&D lab, but that might not be the best way
to spend money at this time.
As for knowing what FCC specs to match, you can look at the test
reports for similar products.
Post by Andrew Rich
So basically your trying to save some dollars and get out of testing
Sent from my iPhone
Post by Sergey Ivanov
What do you mean by a radio stack?
Many modules that implement various radio protocols run software on a
captive microprocessor. That software implements the protocol and drives
the
Post by Andrew Rich
radio electronics. For example TI offers firmware that runs on the
processor
Post by Andrew Rich
inside their CC3000 series chips that implement the Bluetooth protocols.
If
Post by Andrew Rich
a project uses their software in this chip, it can take advantage of TI's
http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/CC3000_Product_Certification)
which
Post by Andrew Rich
saves time and effort.
For Part 15 certification (unintended emissions) you need to get a
certificate from a testing laboratory that is certified by the FCC. They
will put your product in a chamber that absorbs all RF with a wide band
detector and spectrum analyzer. The will detect all of the unintended
emissions and chart them in frequency and dBm. You take their report and
a
Post by Andrew Rich
certification that you aren't going to change the design, and submit
that to
Post by Andrew Rich
the FCC and they will give you a certification ID.
Note that the FCC won't accept your testing, they only accept a certified
lab's test results.
--Chuck
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Thank you Chuck!
I'll check this out. What do you mean by a radio stack?
For now my plan is to use pre-certified modules so that my board will be
certified as an unintentional radiator, which is thousands of $.
But I still need to prove that the board doesn't emit Electro Magnetic
Field above allowed.
Post by Chuck McManis
I am not sure exactly what you are asking.
If you want to get FCC certification for your device, there is a
process
https://www.fcc.gov/engineering-technology/laboratory-division/general/equipment-authorization
Post by Andrew Rich
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Post by Chuck McManis
That pretty much outlines the steps. If you are using a manufacturer
supplied radio stack you may be able to leverage their certification
but if
Post by Andrew Rich
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Post by Chuck McManis
you wrote your own stack you will need to do the authorization
independently. There are a number of consultancies in the US who will
handle
Post by Andrew Rich
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Post by Chuck McManis
the process for you (for a fee of course). A long time ago (2006) I
was on a
Post by Andrew Rich
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Post by Chuck McManis
project that needed such certification and the vendor hired charged
$50,000
Post by Andrew Rich
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Post by Chuck McManis
and it took four months to complete. They did all the required
paperwork and
Post by Andrew Rich
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Post by Chuck McManis
followed up on all of the questions the FCC had, they also flew out an
engineer to an FCC certified test facility to get the verification
tests
Post by Andrew Rich
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Post by Chuck McManis
done. (I live in the San Francisco bay area and the FCC testing
facilities
Post by Andrew Rich
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Post by Chuck McManis
around here are typically reserved months, if not years, in advance it
seems).
--Chuck
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Is there someone who did this or similar task before?
Any specific suggestions?
You can do what ever you like as long as you understand the rules
for a
Post by Andrew Rich
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Post by Chuck McManis
Post by Sergey Ivanov
licence and GNU Radio
Andrew
Hi All!
I have a product which uses nRF24L01+ 2.4 GHz modules for
communication. Now we have plans to go to North America market, and
I am not
Post by Andrew Rich
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Post by Chuck McManis
Post by Sergey Ivanov
sure if my Chinese nRF modules can pass FCC test. If they can't,
then I need
Post by Andrew Rich
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Post by Chuck McManis
Post by Sergey Ivanov
to re-design my PCB (now I use 2 layers logic board and nRF on a
socket).
Post by Andrew Rich
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Post by Chuck McManis
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Can I use HackRF to imitate FCC test on my workbench?
_______________________________________________
HackRF-dev mailing list
https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/hackrf-dev
--
Best Regards,

Sergey Ivanov
+7 910 424 9895
Andrew Rich
2017-08-04 21:01:39 UTC
Permalink
You want to simulate the FCC tests at home I get it

But that defeats the purpose

How do u know what FCC specs to match ?

Your going to have to go through the FCC to get it certified

U want to do prelim testing at home

A


Sent from my iPhone
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Is there someone who did this or similar task before?
Any specific suggestions?
You can do what ever you like as long as you understand the rules for a licence and GNU Radio
Andrew
Post by Sergey Ivanov
Hi All!
I have a product which uses nRF24L01+ 2.4 GHz modules for communication. Now we have plans to go to North America market, and I am not sure if my Chinese nRF modules can pass FCC test. If they can't, then I need to re-design my PCB (now I use 2 layers logic board and nRF on a socket).
Can I use HackRF to imitate FCC test on my workbench?
_______________________________________________
HackRF-dev mailing list
https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/hackrf-dev
--
Best Regards,
Sergey Ivanov
+7 910 424 9895
_______________________________________________
HackRF-dev mailing list
https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/hackrf-dev
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